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Wednesday, December 26, 2012

Reggie White: Video Game Sack God

That's in Week 12
The current NFL Sack record is 22.5 sacks, set by defensive lineman Michael Strahan of the New York Giants in 2001. It seems that every year, one or two guys are looking like they're on pace to break this record, but nobody at this point has ever broken it. However, that's the real world.

For whatever reason, I found an old, small, color TV somewhere in my house. I decided to put it in the back corner of my basement, and hooked a Super NES to it. I'm 12 weeks into a season of Tecmo Super Bowl with the Green Bay Packers. (Current record is 8-3) Green Bay is commanded by three main players: Quarterback Brett Favre, Receiver Sterling Sharpe, and Defensive Lineman Reggie White. The defense itself is only okay outside of Reggie White.

Reggie White was a dominant player in his days. But not this dominant. In week 12, he has 27 sacks! At this point, he's on pace to have around 39 total sacks for the season, which would be roughly 1.73 times as many sacks as Strahan had in 2001.

That's what I like about this game. Everything is magnified. When a guy is good in reality, in Tecmo Super Bowl, he's nearly unstoppable. Bo Jackson, Randall Cunningham, Jerry Rice, Dan Marino, Lawrence Taylor, and Reggie White were all great examples of this phenomenon in the Tecmo Super Bowl franchise.

Sports commentators and reporters often describe examples of high scoring football games as being "Video Game Numbers." I've never liked that analogy, for some reason. I guess when I play video games, (mainly in Football and Soccer) I focus on defense. The last game that I played in TSB ended up with me winning 0-11. White had about 6 sacks. Chris Jacke (Packers kicker) was the leading scorer with three field goals. White was the second highest scorer with a sack for a safety. I don't think I've allowed a point to be scored in 2 games. That's why I don't like hearing about "Video Game Numbers." I don't have those kinds of numbers.

If a guy like TSB Reggie White actually ever existed, he would be considered the greatest player of all time for like seven years until people discovered that he was on steroids/the son of a whose priorities were misplaced. Actual Reggie White was just a Hall of Famer considered one of the greatest players of all time. So I guess it worked out for him.

Sunday, November 25, 2012


The MEGA STATISTICAL REVIEW SYSTEM is based on a 100 point scale. There are five categories on which the subject is judged upon. These categories are: 

Mechanic: How the game works mechanically. This could also be named “gameplay.” The best way that I can describe this is with an example. Compare Sega’s NFL ’97 to Madden 1997. Madden works better because of the mechanics, how the game plays. Getting plays to happen is simple and understandable in Madden, while passing is a fucking geometry experiment in NFL ’97. Compare Croc to Super Mario 64. In Croc, the combat system is lackluster and physics are a bit off. In Mario 64, everything works almost perfectly. Stuff like that

Presentation: How the game is presented to the player. This could be as simple as an awful menu system or more complex, like a confusing camera, a boring and mandatory tutorial, or something of the like.

Control: How the game controls. It’s as simple as that. Some games will pass this section with flying colors, and others will fail with a distinct lack of flying colors.

Design: How the inner workings of the game are designed. This means level design, character design, difficulty, and others that could fall into this category.

Atmosphere: Story, audio, and visuals primarily.
The scale starts at fifty points. Each category can gain or lose up to ten points. The lowest that a category may receive is a -10, highest is +10. A completely neutral category is scored at 0.

Along with these five categories, I will assign “extra credit.” These extra credits can have whatever point value I assign to them. If a game really blows me away in some aspect, or if it exceeds in an aspect that is not measurable within the five categories (Very rarely should this particular instance occur), it will receive some extra credit. Extra credit may also be taken away if it blows me away in the opposite sense.
Does that make sense? No? Hopefully I can explain this to you with my review of MYST for the 3DS, a bargain port of a PC adventure classic. Upon original release, MYST was praised for photo-realistic graphics and being very immersive. Adding a 3D element to a game known primarily for being immersive is a smart idea. How was it pulled off?

CURRENT POINT TOTAL: 50 Points, as nothing has been added or subtracted yet.

Mechanic: In MYST, the main character (which is you) wakes up on a deserted island called MYST. You must solve a number of complex puzzles to figure out the mystery of the island, provide justice to the few who are trapped there, and, most importantly, find your way off.  The whole game is based upon solving these puzzles. In order to get to the levels of the game, called “Ages,” one must first solve puzzles linking parts of the island to where the portals to these “Ages” are contained. This may sound confusing, but that’s because it is! A few of the starting puzzles make sense (The mechanical and channelwood ages) but the rest require the player to use absurd logic (or excellent hearing in one case) in order to piece together the clues to get to the actual levels of the game. Puzzles will be covered more in the “design” category. The mechanics of MYST work well enough, however, and this gets a positive six, for a score of very good.
Score: +6



Presentation: In this 3DS adaptation of MYST, the presentation has changed somewhat from the original releases.  Very little text ends up being used, outside of the books in the library and the few loose pages found throughout the game. The menu and saving systems are intuitive enough, and shouldn’t confuse anyone. One positive addition comes in the form of new abilities to help the player throughout the game. When I originally played this, I had to take notes so that I could remember puzzle clues. Most of these came in the form of crude drawings, and they weren’t terribly accurate, especially when it came to audio based puzzles. This version allows the player to take notes in the game itself, via an onscreen typewriter, though I’ve come to realize that it’s a little difficult to use. Instead of having to draw out notes, the player may now take screenshots of what needs to be remembered. This helps out in the parts where clues from library books need to be used to solve puzzles, and in one certain puzzle involving a harpsichord. These would be immensely helpful if they worked well. They don’t. Only one picture can be saved at a time, and the typewriter can only save three lines at a time. In my first play through the mechanical age (arguably the simplest one), I had to stretch my resources out. If this port included a bank of pictures, or even just a notepad that one could scribble on using the touch screen, it would be incredibly helpful. Honestly, even with these additions, a pen and notepad is still a better alternative. The maps of the island and all of the ages are accessible as well. The additions are minor, but they are at least somewhat helpful. For effort, I suppose it receives a positive 2 for a score of slightly above average.
Score: +2


Control: This is a point-and-click style of game. The DS is a great platform for these types of games, because of the touch screen on the bottom. That concept is fairly simple, and any decent designer should hopefully understand this. What I’m about to tell you will shock you.
MYST for 3DS does not utilize the touch screen in actual gameplay.
The touch screen’s only uses are for saving, taking screenshots, and utilizing the typewriter mentioned in the previous section. This is one of the only point-and-click games available at the moment on 3DS, and it picks the circle pad over the incredibly more accurate touch screen. That baffles me. Yes, in order to play this game, the player utilizes the circle pad and the A button. This leads to incredible inaccuracy. On top of that, there’s a problem with collision detection in some cases! I don’t know how a company can fuck up the control on a point-and-click game, but Maximum Games did it. Congratulations. Are you happy with yourselves?
This gets a score of negative 8 for a score of awful.
Score: -8


Design: Some of the puzzles in the actual ages are pretty good. Some are nonsensical in nature, however, and those tend to stick out more. Do not play this game in public, as many of the puzzles are audio based. These puzzles are generally challenging and rewarding, and it feels great when you solve one for the most part. Keep a guide handy just in case, as some of them are really unfairly difficult. There’s little to say on something positive like this, but they’re pretty good. Therefore, this earns a score of positive 4, for pretty good.
Score: +4


Atmosphere: MYST was praised at release for having great atmospheric qualities. The photorealistic graphics, lifelike sounds, and ominous music led MYST to be considered a work of art by many. In 2000, it was recreated in the form of RealMYST, which was rendered in real time, unlike in the original, in which all screens were pre-rendered. This version is a little strange, as it takes the images from RealMYST and pre-renders them like in the original. It plays like the original game, but with upscaled graphics. However, these graphics are heavily compressed. The whole game looks like it’s played through tiny jpeg images blown up to unnatural sizes. The sound is still pretty good, however. The story has not been changed in any way, and it remains one of my favorite video game stories of all time. MYST uses no direct human interaction until the very end, all communication done via scattered letters and messages left behind, books, and portals in books. The final aspect is the 3D integration. An immersive experience such as this would be enhanced
greatly with the use of 3D. But this port uses absolutely no 3D integration.


This may as well be a DS game. In fact, there is already a DS game. You can find this DS game for around ten dollars fewer on Amazon, and the promotional images seem to show that it uses the touch screen for navigation! Nobody else seems to like that port either, but if you really want to play MYST on your 3DS, you’ll get an arguably better experience with the DS version. You can also find this for 5 dollars on the iPhone along with the sequel, and at the very least, you won’t have to deal with the crushing disappointment that comes from realizing that there is no 3D integration.
The game’s original atmosphere is great, but the failed porting and lost potential makes this incredibly terrible. It gets a negative 8.
Score: -8


Extra Credits:
Missed Potential: -10 points. This could have been great. Instead, the laziness on the developer’s part in porting this game makes it feel even worse.

FINAL POINT TOTAL: 36 points out of 100
Do not purchase this.

Tuesday, August 7, 2012

Summer Awards for 2012

Summer is almost over for me and many others, so it's only natural to go back and recognize some of the things I've taken from certain games after the summer. If a satirical awards article is what it takes for me to express these things, then I'll make one. Note that there are basically no rules at all for these awards. I'll put whatever I want wherever I want (Note: Typically, giving me complete control of anything is considered a fairly bad idea.)

So here we go-
Best Console of the Summer - Sega Dreamcast
The Dreamcast typically wins any "Best Console" awards that I give out. It's great, and it's full of awesome games. The Dreamcast's four controller ports make it an excellent multiplayer console, as shown by games such as Unreal Tournament, Virtua Tennis, and Games and That Podcast favorite Power Stone 2. Also, it has Crazy Taxi.

Worst game of the Summer - Bubsy 3D
It's still awful. Hilariously awful.

Game I was Wrong About of the Summer - Wii Sports Resort
I always have dismissed motion controls as being gimmicky and unreasonable ways to control games. From Tony Hawk's Ride to the Kinect, I've never loved them. This summer, however, I got another chance to play Wii Sports Resort, the game that basically exists to sell the Wii Motion Plus. Initially, I never even wanted to try it out. However, midway through the summer, two friends out at the camp that I work at introduced me to the table tennis mini-game. Simply put, it's awesome. After watching them get unbelievably good at it, I actually tried my hand at it. I did poorly, but I had fun. It goes to show that motion controls can work well in the right situations.

Game that I forgot about but I remembered - Aggressive Inline
Though it represents the weird early 2000's trend of "Extreme" sports games inspired by (Read: taking ideas from) the Tony Hawk's Pro Skater series, Aggressive Inline manages to do just about everything right. It even pioneered a few ideas, using the THPS4 style of timed goals placed in a sort of free skate a few months before THPS4 was released. It has nearly spot on controls, good level design, and a relatively awful soundtrack (minus The Vandals' "Idea for a movie"). If you still have your old XBOX, PS2 or GameCube and you like the Tony Hawk style, Aggressive Inline takes the formula and makes it work really well. I put this game here because I had played it around 2003 and I wasn't a huge fan of it because it was based around inline skating, a sport which I really didn't care for at that point in my life. (I was eight and couldn't comprehend anything other than skateboarding games.)

Best Sonic Game of the Summer - Sonic CD
Sonic Generations wasn't great. However, Sonic CD has some of the best level design ever. You can find it on Steam and on the XBox Live Arcade, and you should absolutely buy it. To put it in perspective for those who haven't played it, imagine a Sonic game with good level design, an awesome soundtrack, and a time travel aspect added. There's Sonic CD for you.

Summer Awards With the Least Continuity of the Summer - These
I mean holy shit who has a summer awards article and then mentions none of the games released in the summer?

Most Disappointing Game of the Summer - NCAA Football 13
When a developer's game is typically criticized for not attempting to innovate, you'd the developer would at least try to fix problems from the previous installment. Unfortunately for EA Sports, it seems that they released the same game as last year. It really feels like NCAA Football 13 could be the biggest waste of money for a sports game fan this year. The new Heisman Challenge mode is fun, but it's not worth the sixty dollars, especially considering the lack of innovation from 2012. As a game, it's alright, but if you've already purchased NCAA Football 12, don't bother.

Emptiest Venture of the Summer - When I wanted to play through all of the Final Fantasy games
I made it halfway through FFIX and then I saved myself into a corner and stopped playing forever because I'm the worst.

Best Multiplayer of the Summer - Super Smash Bros. (N64)
For whatever reason, every summer I seem to come back to Super Smash Bros. in some way out at camp. I played absolutely no Melee, and only a little bit of Brawl, but my Games and That Podcast colleague Clay and I played a lot of the N64 Smash Bros. I had forgot how much I really liked the old N64 Smash Bros, and this summer at camp reminded me.

Best Game of the Summer - Super Mario 3D Land
I had some problems with what it represents, and I had a few more problems getting used to the regression in moveset, but after I got over those problems, and almost perfect game stood before me. I love the level design, the controls, and even some of the 3D effects were great. It's an awesome game, and I'm really glad that I purchased it. I spent a lot of time on it, and it's absolutely any money that you spend on it.

That's about it for Summer 2012. Now that the non-summer session of the year is about to begin, I'm really optimistic about what I'll do on this blog. Stick around!

-The Count

Wednesday, July 4, 2012

The Ultimate Independence Day Game

When it comes to video games that celebrate America, people may think of a patriotic World War II shooter, a game based on a heroically stopping terrorism, or the game based on the film based on the holiday celebrating American independence. But really, what's more American than dominating other countries in a sport that we invented?

Team USA Basketball is simply the most patriotic game ever. In what other sports game can you put all of the best professional players in the world on to one team, and then use that team to dominate all other countries who dared to step up to them? In what other game can you show the true superiority of your country through sports? What other game claims to celebrate a global phenomenon while still naming the game after the country it was made in? Team USA Basketball!

So, for this independence day, celebrate your country's superiority in the sport that they created by playing the only game based on (and named after) America's Olympic basketball team.

Thursday, June 21, 2012

The Count's Top Ten Favorite Sports Games

Sports games always get a bad rap for being unoriginal, uninspired, and uninterested in attempting to innovate. While I understand that some of those points are correct, (A perfect case would be how Madden '07, '08, and '09 are almost the exact same game) I still think that a good sports game is just as good as any other game. This list should hopefully introduce some skeptics to some truly excellent games.

10. Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX: Maximum Remix

After the release of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater in 1999, many game companies were very quick to jump on the "Extreme Sports" video game bandwagon. While some (actually, make that most) of these extreme sports games were awful, some were very good. Acclaim decided to jump on this bandwagon as well, and while their other extereme game was pretty forgettable, this one was not. Acclaim chose Dave Mirra, the most dominant competitive BMXer during the late 1990s, to be their game's namesake, and it proved to be a good decision, as their game Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX became popular enough to get a sequel and an updated re-release. The updated re-release, Maximum Remix, had everything that one could want from the game. The original had excellent controls, a number of great stages, good music given the atmosphere of the game, and a simple single player mode that worked well with the style of play. The Maximum Remix version was only released on the PlayStation, though the original version of the game was released in higher quality graphics on the Sega Dreamcast in 2000. Either version is excellent, though Maximum Remix has more content, as well as a free soundtrack. (Though admittedly, it's not a great soundtrack)

9. NHL '94 (Sega Genesis)
                                                          GameFAQs user noidentity
In some cases, simplicity is the key to a great game. NHL '94 captures the speed and excitement of professional hockey while still being easy to pick up and fun to play. Hockey is a sport that translates very easily to Video Games, because it's fast paced and easy to understand, with constant momentum swings, which translates well into the fast paced world of video games. NHL '94 displays this perfectly, with fast and fun matches that very rarely ever contain a dull moment. As previously stated, NHL '94's real greatness lies within its simplicity. The simplistic controls well to the three button Sega Genesis controller, leading to a play experience that is enjoyable even from the first play. NHL '94 sits almost perfectly on the balance between simulation and fun, making it an excellent game.

8. Pro Evolution Soccer '12 (XBOX 360)
Pro Evolution Soccer '12, while lacking a number of club and league licenses, is an excellent game due to its attention to detail and excellent control system. The control system manages to be accurate while not using the analog stick heavy control systems that many other recent sports titles have started using more and more frequently. Konami's button based control scheme worked very well in earlier PES titles, but PES 2012 truly does it the best. PES 2012 also works because of its lifelike graphics, strategic gameplay system, and its multitude of different modes. This may be the most realistic (and also most enjoyable soccer) game to date.

7. MLB Pennant Race (PlayStation)
I originally bought this game, made in house by Sony for the PlayStation in 1996, for the video above. I almost immediately fell in love with it. There's something almost perfect about MLB Pennant Race that doesn't exist in many other baseball games. Hell, even later games in the Sony MLB series haven't been able to top the original. MLB Pennant Race displays the principle of "less is more" almost perfectly. Pitching is clear and understandable, fielding is based in fairly common sense, and hitting is as simple as it needs to be. There's no pointless bullshit like trying to guess where the pitch is going to land, or having to correctly judge the airspeed velocity of a throw from the outfield to second base. It's all simple and fun, and that's what really makes this great. There's also a season mode and a home run derby, for those who care.

6. ESPN NFL 2K5 (PlayStation 2 and XBOX)
For a brief, and I mean very brief moment in 2004, it seemed as if Sega Sports was about to take over the sports game market. Their usage of the ESPN license allowed them to put a big name on their product, and unlike previous companies whose usage of the ESPN license ended up without much success, Sega planned to make enormous strides in catching up to EA Sports' mighty empire. They actually made good usage of the ESPN license, giving menus an NFL Primetime feel to them, including actual Sunday Night Football announcers, and even giving a mock Sportscenter broadcast after each week. The game's extra features were topped off by the fact that it was released at only 20 dollars per copy, 30 dollars less than the EA Sports games. On top of what ESPN NFL 2K5 already had, Sega Sports and Digital Concepts were able to put together one of the best football simulations of all time. The simulation aspect of ESPN NFL 2K5 meshes perfectly with the enjoyable gameplay, which leads to one of the most enjoyable experiences ever in a football game. Along with extra features such as First Person Football, the ability to play classic NFL moments in the ESPN25 mode, and "The Crib," a full house that one can put their accomplishments and trophies in, ESPN NFL 2K5 is the best football simulation to date. Unfortunately, EA Sports bought out the NFL license in 2005, taking away the ability for any competition from Sega.

5. NFL Blitz 2001 (Dreamcast, PlayStation, N64)
On the complete other end of the spectrum from ESPN NFL 2K5 is NFL Blitz, an arcade game from Midway. Midway was well known for their success in creating fun sports games such as Super High Impact and NBA JAM, and NFL Blitz follows the example set by those two very well. NFL Blitz chooses to focus on hard hits and big plays rather than statistics and realism. The professional wrestling style hits didn't stop after the play was dead, however, as players could make late hits on downed ball carriers for a brief period of time after the play. The trash talking players, over the top gameplay, and the crazed announcer make this game incredibly enjoyable, especially with one or more friends.

4. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 (GameCube, PlayStation 2, XBOX)
Though it's not the most realistic skateboarding game, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 is pure fun. The THPS series had progressed more and more from the first game to the fourth, adding in the manual in THPS2 and the revert in THPS3. THPS4 added in a number of new features, including the spine transfer and the car skitch. THPS4 also added in an updated single player mode, which infused free skate mode with the career mode of the previous games. Goals now had their own defined time limit, which allowed for more freedom for the player. THPS4 retained the fast paced gameplay and easily understandable controls from previous games, and simply added on. The levels from THPS4 are some of the most memorable in the series, with the new career mode allowing for a whole range of new elements, such as the drunken bum at the college, the rampaging elephant in the zoo, and the roller coasters at the carnival. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 is the best in the series, and also one of the most enjoyable sports games ever.

3. Tecmo Super Bowl (NES, SNES, Genesis)
                                            Gamefaqs user Tropicon
Tecmo Super Bowl is known for being one of the few classic games still commonly being played competitively. The reason that people still play it to this day lies in the fact that it is one of the most enjoyable football games of all time. It's one of the few games whose multitude of flaws help to make it actually more fun to play, such as the zig-zag run glitch and the absurdly high ability levels of some of the players, such as Jerry Rice, Christian Okoye, and rather famously Bo Jackson, who has become famous for the number of YouTube videos featuring 400 plus yard, 5 minute long runs performed by him. Mixed in with the memorable athletes is the excellent gameplay, which is simple to learn and makes the game enjoyable for all, even for a person who has never played before. While the sometimes absurd rubber band A.I. can lead single players into fits of rage, it's hard to find a game that can be more fun when around friends. It's a nearly perfect version of football, and it's fun for all.

2. Skate 3 (XBOX 360, PlayStation 3)
                                                                My own Skate 3 content
Many of the games on this list are most enjoyable with friends. Skate 3 may be one of the few sports games that is actually at its best with just one player. As one of the only sandbox based skateboard games in existence, Skate 3 is truly an innovator in the market of skateboarding games. It takes place in a living, breathing city named Port Carverton. Skate 3 is able not only to have an enjoyable single player mode, but it also is able to still be enjoyable after the game is finished. It's similar to Grand Theft Auto, except instead of murder, you do kickflips over people. It's seriously one of the most enjoyable experiences ever. It uses a more realistic control scheme than the rival Tony Hawk series, but it still manages to be fun. EA's ragdoll physics even make it fun after you fall off your skateboard, with a full mode dedicated to creating the most painful crashes. While the sandbox portion is great, it doesn't take anything away from an excellent single player mode, which involves starting up a skateboard company, and eventually working up to the top of the skateboard selling world. The goals are spaced out similarly to the goals in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, and the free skating mode built around the goals allows for a lot of freedom for the player. The key to what makes Skate 3 great is the freedom that is felt by simply skating around a giant city. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted away while trying to complete a difficult line or make some impossible trick. Skate 3 is basically the perfect skateboard simulation, and I still hold out hope for a sequel someday, though I realize it's likely never going to happen.

1. NBA Showtime: NBA on NBC (Arcade, Dreamcast, N64, PlayStation)

A common complaint about basketball video games is the fact that many are bogged down with too many complications. In some simulation games, defenses are nigh-on impenetrable, shooting is unreasonably difficult, and the player is forced to choose between a multitude of complex plays, many of which end up failing anyway. These problems plague basketball games, turning a sport based upon fast paced and exciting action into a boring chess match. NBA Showtime is not one of those games.

NBA Showtime's basis is its fast and fun gameplay. It's similar to Tecmo Super Bowl and NHL '94 because it's so easy for everyone, even those who despise the idea of sports, to pick up, play, and have a good time with. This is helped by a simple control scheme, using only three buttons, one for shooting, one for passing, and one for a turbo boost. Advanced maneuvers can be learned, including alley-oops and crossover dribbles as the game goes on. The rubber band A.I. exists in this game just as much as it does in NFL Blitz, (another Midway arcade sports game) but it's more forgiving than in others. NBA Showtime came out in 1999, one of the best periods in NBA history, a transition period between the 1990s style of fast paced and rough basketball and the early 2000's style of precision basketball. There's a mix of great veterans, such as Scottie Pippen, Vlade Divac, Charles Barkley, and Gary Payton, along with a number of (at the time) young talent, such as Allen Iverson, Mike Bibby, Kevin Garnett, and Kobe Bryant. The number of great players and great teams in the game make for games that rarely ever have dull moments. A game of NBA Showtime is always full of suspense and action, which is intensified when playing against a friend. NBA Showtime captures all of the good aspects of basketball and ignores all of the bad parts, making for one great game. I can not recommend this any higher.

Monday, June 18, 2012

Quick Thoughts about Video Games for 6/18/12

Rhythm Heaven Fever and Kirby: Return To Dreamland make me want to either dust off my half broken Wii or just cut out the hassle of trying to fix it, and just  buy a new one.
My Wii's internal memory tends to corrupt any and all save files. It's rather annoying, seeing how I can't play games like Animal Crossing: City Folk at all,  because there's only save file, I can't make another, and my Wii freezes every time that I try to look at the memory. I have given that Wii to my younger sister, so I'm in a position where I could simply purchase a brand new, working Wii, but I likely will just live without it.
The 3DS looks like it has a number of good games that I haven't had the money to buy. Thankfully, I'm working again this summer, so money may not be an issue now
Hopefully I'll start playing newer games sometime soon.  I stopped buying them mainly because of high prices, but also because I couldn't find many games that interested me for a long while. It seems, however, that I simply wasn't looking in the right places. I've got high hopes for the future of Video Games, and I'm confident that the next few years will be great.

Wednesday, March 7, 2012

Games and That Podcast Episode 9

Link is there

This episode features a few guests, all of which are Christian's friends. If it sounds like teenage kids spewing inside jokes at each other, that's because that's what it is.